E54 – The Impulso Podcast – Jasper Knoben on ecommerce in Southeast Asia: past, present and future

In a candid conversation with Jasper Knoben, CEO of Flywheel Southeast Asia, we delved into the dynamic and evolving landscape of e-commerce in the region. With over a decade of experience, from his early days at Lazada Vietnam to leading Flywheel, Jasper brings a wealth of knowledge and insights about ecommerce in the region as he discusses the challenges and triumphs of navigating the e-commerce market in the region. 

Tune into this latest episode, where we explored:

• the entry of Lazada, Shopee, and Amazon in the early days, shaping the market
• new ecommerce models like TikTok Shop and the rise of live commerce;
• the future of generative and general AI in the industry

Jasper also shares his vision for Flywheel and the strategic moves shaping the future of digital commerce in Southeast Asia. Tune in for a candid conversation that sheds light on the past, present, and future of the dynamic e-commerce landscape.

Listen to the full podcast here:

Also available on Apple Podcast. And if you prefer, you can watch the full episode here:

Featured materials:
The TikTokShop Playbook, Momentum Works
Ecommerce in SEA 2023, Momentum Works 

[AI-generated transcript] 

[00:00:00] Sabrina

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Impulso podcast. Today, we’re going to be talking about the dynamic ecommerce scene in the region. And with us today, we have a very special guest Jasper, how do I pronounce your last name? 

[00:00:13] Jasper

Knoben. Knoben

[00:00:15] Sabrina

Jasper Knoben, the current CEO of Flywheel Southeast Asia, who has been in e commerce for more than a decade.So Jasper, maybe you could introduce yourself and Flywheel, as well as your past experiences, to our listeners. 

[00:00:28] Jasper

Good morning. So I’m Jasper. After an internship in China, I was very keen to move to Asia, which I did in 2013 pursuing an NCAT MBA. After that moved to Lazada, Vietnam, one of the first head of marketplace there, very, very early days moved over to the brand side, joined Philips first in a strategy role, then later as the e commerce lead for APAC on the brand side and establishing Philips as a top 10 brand in e commerce in Southeast Asia.

And in 2019, early 2019, I joined Intrepid first as chief commercial officer, and then as a CEO and we are a regional e commerce enabler, basically offering brands international brands a range of services ranging from e commerce to media, to a lot of technology solutions and insights, data and analytics.

Across Southeast Asia, and it’s been quite a, quite a journey since then because Intrepid was acquired by by Essential in 2022. And in turn essential has split in three parts and flywheel, which is the digital commerce business of essential basically was a string of 11 companies that were all acquired in the last last decade or so have come together as flywheel and flywheel is as of last week, part of Omnicom, one of the large marketing groups in the world.

So yeah, never a dull moment is what I always tell the team and we’re living up to that. 

[00:01:55] Jianggan

As you can probably hear or see, Jasper is from the Netherlands. You can hear from his repeated mentioning of Philips just now and he found a bike in his background and he complained about not having a virtual background, but from the bike, you pretty much can guess where he’s from.

Flywheel, does Amazon have a, I don’t know, like trademark or whatever for that name or people can use that name or the company? 

[00:02:19] Jasper

No, it’s funny, actually. So first of all, in flywheel is that was the name of our US sister company. And as let’s say, why, why were we acquired by essential? And why are we now quite happy with the name flywheel, right?

Our strategy has always been to to be a regional partner for brands work with them across Southeast Asia and ultimately beyond in other markets where the platforms that we know how to run well, Also exist. We believe that we can drive synergies across multiple markets, that we can accelerate learning and thereby performance across multiple markets, and that technology will become an increasing competitive differentiator as as the e commerce landscape matures and becomes more sophisticated.

So those are the areas where we invest and lead and retail media. is a big part of that. And if we look at flywheel in the U. S. Or globally, this is exactly basically they’re trying to do. On a global level, what we were trying to do on Southeast Asia level. So bringing together a lot of best in class technology solutions focusing heavily on retail media, working extremely closely with Amazon in the U S to put it into perspective our, our colleagues in the U S manage around 6 billion of ad spend on Amazon U S alone by far the largest partner there.

And why I’m very happy with the name flywheel is the way i, as an individual, always explained our proposition to clients is if you’re a brand, you have a certain budget, a percentage in your profit and loss, which you allocate to marketing, right? If we run e commerce and we run digital marketing for, for a brand, and we can drive a higher return on ad spend on that marketing budget that drives more sales, more sales accrues more marketing budget and voila, that creates a flywheel.

Then the third pillar of our business, the insights on whether that’s market share, whether it’s digital shelf, whether that’s competitive tracking gives additional insights, which helps us optimize our marketing and our commercial strategy. So it serves as a second flywheel to really accelerate the performance of brands.

So I haven’t heard from Amazon on any copyright infringement, but it’s clear that the flywheel as a management concept is very well proven.

[00:04:44] Jianggan

It’s actually very good because it helps people see how they should structure their, their effort and what the effort will bring and and obviously how. Don’t know. I mean, it’s just, it’s entrenched, right? How do you drive a flywheel? So that kind of concept. Anyway I think talk a little bit about history. Yeah. 

[00:04:59] Sabrina:

So, I mean, you’ve explained that you’ve sort of been in ecommerce in the region for about more than a decade. So how do you see the 

[00:05:07] Jianggan

That’s explained by his beard. It’s turning grey. 

[00:05:09] Sabrina

How have you seen the landscape evolved over these past decades? Are there things that you expected or things that you did not expect to happen?

[00:05:16] Jasper

Well, it’s funny, right? In the early days, at first there was only Lazada and then, then Shopee came onto the scene and then Amazon in Singapore came to the scene.

And obviously it prompted a lot of discussions, right? Like how strong is that first mover advantage and what will be the end state of the market? With, I think, two years ago or so. The market consensus was that a duopoly like at the time China, Alibaba and JD was, was a very likely end state of the market in the early days when you know, JD was there Rakuten was there, a number of the Korean players were there, you, you always saw that.

Market entrance always burns a lot of money. And then by the time that they reached a scale that they would love to become more sustainable, a new market entrance enters the market, burns a lot of money and therefore forcing everyone to keep subsidizing and make it a very challenging business climate.

So after, well, eight, eight years or so in the market I think it’s quite surprising to see that, like in China with Pinduoduo and, and Douyin, right? New forms of e commerce of shopping, consumer behaviors, basically, are emerging, gaining a ton of traction. And I think also to see the the scale that these platforms reach very quickly.

I mean in terms of GMV significant, I think TikTok is also very over indexed on Southeast Asia. If you look at it from a global international GMV. So favorable demographics, favorable mobile app digitally native behaviors in this part of the world, which seemed to make it very fertile grounds for, for a new entrance.

On the other hand, Amazon has not expanded. That’s an interesting one. That’s, I think, everyone expected more from their side. Maybe they’re biding their time and waiting for more funds, more war chests to be depleted. So that’s a question mark. And I think it’s there are a number of local champions, let’s say Tiki, which is really losing traction in Vietnam, Tokopedia, which is a question mark after the merger with TikTok, like, what, what is the strategic outlook for, for that platform?

So in general, I think it’s been. A very dynamic market in terms of ecosystem in terms of, of share of the main platforms and around the preferred business model between brands and platforms and consumers and platforms. So, yeah, also on that front in this market, never a dull moment. 

[00:07:53] Jianggan

This is something I heard that the founder of of Bytedance, Zhang Yiming, I mean, he was once in the office of Chris Fung, CEO of Shopee, that was a few years ago. And and I think Chris Fung recounted this to, to a lot of a lot of employees at Shopee that Zhang Yiming told me specifically, I think two or three years ago that they were never doing e commerce. Oh, wow. And , obviously, I think that might be the, the actual assessment of ByteDance at that moment.

They said, okay, e commerce is too heavy. We don’t have the capabilities to do that, but things evolve, right? So they discover ways of monetizing and they discovered that they could actually do that in China and fairly successfully. And they’ve discovered that because of their active user base that competitors can’t really stop them.

I mean, they can compete on e commerce. Sort of per se, but but stopping commercial TikTok has been very hard for many people. 

[00:08:42] Jasper

Ultimately this is a question mark, right? Because at the moment I think TikTok is subsidizing at different levels than the other platforms in the market.

Right. So I think for me, the big question is. What’s the end state? There will be an equilibrium, right? You can’t have a crazy superior ROAS on one platform versus others, because then ultimately advertising money will keep flowing there to the point that supply and demand level out and you get the same ROAS.

So I think the big question mark is, is there a fundamental difference in the ROAS that you can achieve long term without subsidies in a content led platform model versus a shopping led platform model?

[00:09:22] Jianggan

What’s your assessment on that? Or is it too early to tell because I would imagine Yeah, go ahead.

[00:09:27] Jasper

I think it’s different purposes, right? And you will target different buyer groups for different products. Because the user journey is different. From, from the live streaming and exploration led model on TikTok. So it’s quite interesting to see their, their mall or their, their shop.

Let’s say because that is in a way competing in the same business model. So I think even as a platform TikTok, you can’t, you can’t say like, this is it, right? There, there are two distinct user journeys on the platform, which will probably have quite different. Commercial ratios over time as well.

[00:10:05] Jianggan

So basically how they allocate the resources and how long they will sustain this investment. And at the same time, whether they can actually build up this more on TikTok shop. I mean, this all questions, right? It depends on lots of factors. 

[00:10:18] Jasper

And we know that Shopee is very aggressively pushing and growing their live streaming segment on the shop, right?

So. Back in the days, we always said e commerce and social are converging, right? Where Lazada and Shopee were building more gamification, more entertainment on the app. And the social, back in the days, that was more, let’s say, the likes of Facebook and Instagram, were adding more commercial features. I think now TikTok launched right in the middle of that spectrum.

But ultimately, everyone is still converging, right? And also there, we do not yet know, I mean, there will not be a steady state. But Like how much social features will the e commerce platforms be able to build and how successful will they be and how, how much how big will the share be of the the e commerce features on the social platforms.

So that actually 

[00:11:10] Jianggan

 comes down not only to, I mean, strategically analyze, which makes more sense. It comes down a lot to. The organization of different platforms and how they allocate resources and how execution I mean, how good they can execute. But of course, I mean, to determine how good things are, it’s actually quite difficult, even I think within the platforms.

[00:11:28] Jasper

 And sorry, is that a question, Jianggan, or that was a statement statement. Yeah, 

[00:11:33] Sabrina

you guys are curious a little about TikTok shop. We do have a TikTok shop playbook report that I would link in the show notes below. 

[00:11:40] Jianggan

That was a commercial break,

[00:11:42] Sabrina

Since we are talking about TikTok shop, maybe we should also talk a little bit about live commerce because live commerce is actually a pretty big part of TikTok shop.

Right. And it’s something that TikTok is doing. relatively well compared to its competitors like Shopee. So how have you guys seen the live commerce scene in Southeast Asia evolve? And what do you think there’s potential growth in this area? 

[00:12:02] Jianggan

Actually, I’ve added part to that question to Jasper. I mean, how do you think that brands perceive live commerce? And how has that perception evolved over the last two and a half years? And in your opinion should they actually get heavily involved? If yes, why, if no, why not? And and what kind of challenges do they have if they want to get involved in whichever capacity?

[00:12:21] Jasper

So, first of all, I think live commerce is definitely here to stay. I mean, Southeast Asia is no China, but it typically follows a similar, not identical, but a similar path. And we see the success of live streaming in China. From a brand’s perspective, I think. It’s been quite a significant learning journey over the last year.

I would say that’s when when most traction really happened. Where initially, so I think the challenge is right, you need an account. Some brands have global accounts and there’s all sorts of restrictions around this. So in terms of practically getting organized to do it and to do it well, it’s not easy for all brands given their configuration.

Then from a budget perspective, a lot of brands go like, I would like to do it, but we do not have the marketing budget to do what we would want to do. Then what they would like to do it’s, it’s also been a bit of a journey where Some brands, especially in the early days, had briefs, which basically approach like, Hey, we need to create Oscar winning scripts.

And we need to create like amazing contents storytelling super elaborate one and a half hour movies in a way. And with that level of investment behind it, we can do one or two a month. And that obviously doesn’t work on a platform like TikTok, where it’s all about breaking through the clutter frequency being there.

So you need to do pretty much daily live streaming. And the average user will probably, or the average consumer or, or, yeah, user of the platform will probably only look at your live stream for a couple of minutes. So. You do not need a one and a half hour script, if anything, that’s counterproductive.

Right. So I think there’s been a lot of learning in, on that front. But the industry is still in its infancy, and I think we’ll see a lot more movement in in that area.

[00:14:16] Jianggan

 I think for most brands or people who are trying to make a decision on that, do you think that they should experiment? I don’t know, with small budgets, or do you think that they should observe very closely and figure out the right thing and actually?

I mean, you must a bit later when they see a bit of clarity is to see what formula actually works.

[00:14:39] Jasper

Well, most brands have marketing investment frameworks where the bulk of money goes to proven and tested channels and formats. There’s a little pot of money which goes to new things which they haven’t done before.

And there is a pot of money in between which goes to things which they’ve done before, but they’re still optimizing. And I think live streaming is in that second stage at the moment. So there are meaningful investments in it, but it’s nowhere near maturity or one of the mainstays of their marketing strategy.

[00:15:11] Jianggan

And also specifically about life. And that that actually comes down to a point which I don’t know whether you feel the pain or you feel the excitement is is managing across the region, right? I mean, different languages, different yeah. I mean, lots of things are different. And of course the people you manage the culture, each country will be different.

And e-commerce enabler, as they say in China, is always a very heavy business because there are lots of people involved and, and how do you feel that live is potentially changing this? Because we, we have seen that the software content, I mean, I don’t know, software music being created in Korea gets, you know, people in Southeast Asia creating content, then it gets popular in the US or whatever.

So, you, from a content point of view, I think things transcend borders probably more easily than many thought. But, but it’s, it’s a bit harder to bet what kind of content would actually transcend borders. And for operational point of view, I mean, you already have the challenge of managing the, you know, teams across different markets.

And when that layer is added to the expectations, et cetera, I mean, how do you see it? 

[00:16:13] Jasper

Yeah, it’s an, it’s an interesting question. I think from an organization design perspective, there are different objectives to optimize for. One is to to integrate, to work effectively with clients and partners.

So we work with brands, we work with platforms, et cetera. So usually we try to mirror our clients organizations. I think from our organization design philosophy from the beginning has been, we have a number of our industry peers, which I like to call hub and spoke. They start in one country, then they branch out in a second and a third, but they’ll have a very, very big headquarters.

And then they try to do another country on the side. We have always been a, so there’s no better term for it, but an omni core with central enablement. We’ve got very strong. Country teams, which can support a high degree of localization. And we have a regional team, which facilitates those countries with central system, central processes, relationships with brands and platform on a regional level, et cetera.

So it, it gives a lot more adaptability on, on how to engage in indeed the very fragmented and diverse landscape that is Southeast Asia. Which honestly it’s a blessing and a curse, right? It creates the complexity, creates opportunity, but it’s very difficult to run a business efficiently and at scale at, at the current maturity and size of the market.

So I think that’s, organizational design philosophy. You’ll, you’ll throw in, the user and the content perspective, where I think at least from a language perspective, there are three markets, Indonesia’s sorry, Singapore, Malaysia and Philippines, which at least can all speak English or English is a very well established language on top off the local other local languages that creates some synergy.

But ultimately, It’s also cultural, right? A live streaming host needs to be from the country where the consumer is, where the audience is. So that definitely creates localization requirements beyond merely copywriting or graphic design that we’ve seen in the past.

[00:18:25] Jianggan

 So, we talk about organizational design, and obviously this is very timely for what we have observed at Lazada, right? I mean, so they are centralizing some of the functions, and but yet at the same time, at a global level, at Alibaba, they are decentralizing some of the functions.

I mean, making AIDC a little bit more Independent. So, so that was there’s a train of thought is that you need to design organization right from the beginning because afterwards is very difficult and very painful to change. But there’s also a chain of thought is that when we design something which fits the circumstances, which fix the complexity and level maturity that you’re dealing with, but when things involve, when macros change, when a competitive environment changes.

And the organization needs to adapt and sometimes it means a swing from centralization to decentralization and vice versa. And what’s your take in that? I mean, I know it’s very philosophical. 

[00:19:20] Jasper

 No, but I think there’s a, let’s say, when I was in the corporate world there, there was a generally acknowledged, let’s say, principle that companies typically swing in terms of organizational design every seven years, right?

You go from product led to market led and you go from centralized to localized. That’s those are ultimately changes. The only constant as, as people say on in Alibaba, I think that holds for every company actually. And what we’re seeing now is after a period of time where Top line and growth were the key drivers there.

You want to localize, right? It’s all about making sure that you are the most relevant, the most whatever to capture every last percent of the opportunity today and in the, in the, in the years ahead, I think there’s a lot more pressure to be sustainable to drive efficiencies. So you will see more centralization.

And, and, and driving efficiency and standardization on platform side, on the brand side, and inevitably, if we mirror our organization to our stakeholders, then we will follow that trend. For us, that has the benefit, the added benefit of as we work together with brands or increasingly brands to choose to work with us across multiple markets, more markets, even all six and they expect obviously to work. In exactly the same way. So we need to standardize. We need to maintain the local nuances where possible.

But it needs to be underpinned by standardization in everything that’s client facing, obviously, because that’s, that’s one of the key selling points. And also with an entirely standardized operating model across different functions, you open up a lot more opportunities for automation, because if everyone works in the same way, it’s much easier to implement technology.

And I think those are the principles that underpin our. Organizational design evolution over the last year.

[00:21:13] Jianggan

How much time do you spend thinking about organization? How much time on product? How much time on strategy and how much time on actual day to day? I’m just curious. 

[00:21:23] Jasper

Oh, impossible to answer.

That’s a homework question that I’ve come back on. Fortunately, we have many talented people across the organization who spend enough time thinking on about all those those topics. Obviously increasingly less day to day. But strategy, I think strategy as such, we know where we’re going. And our strategy, our strategic decisions from the early days have been validated over the last couple of years.

So it’s more, I would say it’s more fine tuning direction based on externalities. And it’s in terms of technology and in terms of everything, right, how we evolve as a company, it’s, it’s a very cliche statement by now from, from Jeff Bezos, it’s always day one, but it’s still, and it’s really the case, right?

The world is evolving at such a rapid pace that if you make a plan for the year and you think that, wow, if we complete this will be amazing. Yeah, by age two, you already upped your plan to a level that you couldn’t anticipate six months earlier. Right? So. It is really evolving at that pace So 

[00:22:27] Jianggan

so you were saying that we’re back in corporate.

I mean you talk about swinging every seven years now It’s probably every like two quarters.

[00:22:33] Jasper

It’s not swinging. No. No, it’s not swinging at all, right, but it’s it’s incremental changes because also I mean We’re very people centric organization, right? We’re over 600 strong at the moment. And given the dynamic in the market, it’s already a very, very dynamic place to work.

And I’m very cognizant of the fact that people’s ability to digest and embrace change. It’s also limited. So it’s a journey that we’re all on together and we need to, to pace ourselves. 

[00:23:04] Sabrina

Interesting that you mentioned automation of standardization of some services so that you can automate it. Right. And while we’re talking about automation and embracing change, of course, a new change that we’re seeing in not really the region, but in the e commerce scene is the use of AI, right?

I mean, we’ve mentioned before that even in Alibaba’s latest earnings call, they mentioned AI. 48 times. 48 times. Versus 8 times GMV

[00:23:27] Jasper

You count it?

[00:23:29] Jianggan

Yeah. We count it.

[00:23:33] Sabrina

yeah. So how do you see the potential disruption of the industry with AI? And how do you think the ecosystem should prepare itself for this disruption?

[00:23:42] Jasper

That’s the billion dollar question right there. First of all, I think it’s quite important to distinguish because often people use the word just AI. I like to think of it as generative AI and general ai, and they will have very different impacts on the ecosystem, right? What we’re, what we’ve seen especially last year with Chad GPT and everything is, is a rapid acceleration of mainstream emergence of generative ai.

And if I look at e-commerce as a whole, that will impact. Mostly the content related side of the business, whether that is customer service chats, whether that is graphic design or whether that is the written content that you see across all platforms, optimization where I was at earlier in the year, last year, I was at a conference of our global team in the U S.

One of the colleagues on stage presented it very well to to the, the audience, which included his team, which was the content optimization team. And he said, today we are optimizing content tomorrow. Our job is to. Train a I models to optimize content for clients, right? So I think, yes, there will be. It’s, it’s, it’s likely that there will be fewer people doing the same work, but I is not going to replace let’s say an entire team or entire function.

It’s going to fundamentally change what the team does, but in terms of knowledge and in terms of how to work with a I. Okay. The expertise that you have today is still fully relevant tomorrow. It’s just you need to retrain the people to make maximum use of the new tools that are available to them. I don’t know if you’ve played around with generative AI, but if you look at still how difficult it is to get the outcome that you desire by certain prompts, there are plenty of hilarious LinkedIn posts, et cetera, about people.

Trying and failing. And I think it’s it. It’s really testament to the fact that despite all the hype and despite all the amazing progress that’s been made, it’s not. It’s not where where you would need it to be or where it genuinely replaces a lot of humans, right? The human interaction with AI is in the end what will create the results and what what, what is really needed.

Then for general AI, I think that’s that’s a very, that’s a slightly longer horizon. And I think what we’ll see there is much more sophisticated machine learning powered optimization of everything, rather than today, maybe a little bit more archaic algorithm or rule based optimizations.

The question there is, is our industry. At the scale to support that level of technology investment and also to run. Real time optimization is quite costly. So I think there will be a journey of technology readiness. There will be a journey of economic feasibility as the e commerce market continues to grow in Southeast Asia.

[00:26:51] Jianggan

So, when you say our industry, do you mean that the, the, the e commerce enabler industry or the ecosystem of Basically software providers as well as operational sort of partners for brands and the platforms. 

[00:27:04] Jasper

Answer D all of the above. So think of it, right? Some brands will have global AI tools, which they will seek to deploy.

You see already that the marketplaces are deploying AI tools in chat. And some. Whether it’s just branded AI or whether it’s actual AI, that’s up for discussion, but increasingly there’s more sophisticated optimization and automation being offered by the platforms. There will always be a layer of optimization and automation that companies like us have to offer to the industry so it will really affect everyone.

[00:27:41] Jianggan

So do you think that because, the platforms, especially large platforms are having the ability to deploy or, or research on that at, at, at, at much larger scale, do you think that will strengthen their sort of power in a whole ecosystem? 

[00:27:56] Jasper

So it depends, right? If you look maybe a good analogy is to look at retail media as well, where your, your, or media in general, where in the cookie world you could target people across all different platforms, right? That, that time is gone. What we’re seeing emerging now is basically multiple walled gardens on the marketplace platforms.

In which data is available and in which sophisticated technology can be deployed. So. AI is very similar where the platforms will get very sophisticated within their platform, right? And as long as, and Southeast Asia is a very fragmented market where there is multiple platforms. So unless one platform becomes the dominant online shopping channel, Then, yes, then that would disrupt the ecosystem in the industry.

As long as you have two, three, four significant players, each commanding a double digit share of the market, then there is a very strong need for players like us who streamline and integrate that omni channel go to market also from an AI tools perspective. Does that answer your question or not?

[00:29:12] Jianggan

I think it does, and I think still quite a bit of thinking would be required over the next, I don’t know, I don’t know how long the horizon is because nobody knows, right?

Nobody knows how fast this can evolve. And that probably depends on everybody else in the ecosystem who have the capabilities to invest and how do they perceive this? How do they allocate resources back to a shorter horizon in 2024? What are you looking forward to? I mean, it’s three weeks down, 

[00:29:39] Jasper 

two weeks gone an interesting year for sure.

With, I mean, we, we discussed a bit before the call, right? I think the unfortunate layoffs at Lazada raise questions also on the brand side. What does this mean for the platform and for the broader ecosystem? Will we see further profit and loss pressure? Will we see less subsidies? Will we see less marketing investment, which.

Will slow the market down further. Is that a platform specific development or will that be an industry wide development? Right. After the COVID spike we have returned to a more macro longer term e commerce growth curve, which is, growing at a slower pace than before because of a different economic climate where before it was all about growth and top line, and now it’s about sustainability.

Right. So I think My crystal ball for the year is is a little bit blurry. We are cautiously optimistic. I think there is a lot of fundamentals which towards a favorable year, but there’s a lot of things which could happen which would slow down investments as well. I think we have seen layoff and restructurings on the platform side.

Anecdotally, we start to see also on the brand side, some some restructurings and obviously when, when that happens, when the focus is on efficiency, when the focus is on cost saving, then there’s less focus on growth. So I think as a company, we’re, we’re very well placed to to whether any headwinds we, we may face or the industry may face.

But as a market overall it could well, well be that this year shows slower growth than than we anticipated. 

[00:31:18] Jianggan

So anyway, you have, you have seen enough like ups and downs over the last. How many years? 11 years e commerce? 

[00:31:24] Jasper

11. 11 in Southeast Asia. Yes. 

[00:31:27] Jianggan

Wow. Okay. 

[00:31:29] Sabrina

So thanks Jasper for joining us today on this episode of the Impulso Podcast.

We hope you guys enjoyed today’s episode. Do like our podcast and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform to stay up to date on the latest happening and trends in tech, new retail, and the broader digital economy. Bye bye. 

[00:31:49] Jasper

Thank you. Awesome. Thanks for having me.